Hampshire County Council
Councillors:
78
Wards:
76
Committees:
49
Meetings (2025):
165
Meetings (2024):
156
Meeting
HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee - Hampshire
Meeting Times
Scheduled Time
Start:
Tuesday, 10th December 2024
2:00 PM
Tuesday, 10th December 2024
2:00 PM
End:
Tuesday, 10th December 2024
6:00 PM
Tuesday, 10th December 2024
6:00 PM
Meeting Status
Status:
Confirmed
Confirmed
Date:
10 Dec 2024
10 Dec 2024
Location:
Room X - Hampshire & IOW Fire & Police HQ, Eastleigh
Room X - Hampshire & IOW Fire & Police HQ, Eastleigh
Meeting Attendees
Deputy
Councillor George Madgwick
Liberal Democrat, Independent and Labour Group for HIWFRA (Portsmouth City Council)
Apologies
Committee Member
Councillor Karen Lucioni
Liberal Democrat, Independent and Labour Group for HIWFRA (Isle of Wight Council)
Apologies
Agenda
1
Apologies for Absence
To receive any apologies for absence.
Minutes
Apologies were received from Cllr Lucioni and Cllr Madgwick.
2
Declarations of Interest
To enable Members to disclose to the meeting any disclosable pecuniary interest they may have in any matter on the agenda for the meeting, where that interest is not already entered in the Authority’s register of interests, and any other pecuniary or non-pecuniary interests in any such matter that Members may wish to disclose.
Minutes
Members were mindful of their duty to disclose at the meeting any Disclosable Pecuniary Interest they had in any matter on the agenda for the meeting, where that interest was not already in the Authority’s register of interests, and their ability to disclose any other personal interests in any such matter that they might have wished to disclose.
No declarations were made.
No declarations were made.
3
Minutes of Previous Meeting
To confirm the minutes of the previous meeting held on 26 September 2024.
Attachments:
- Document 2024 09 26 Minutes Draft 02 Dec 2024
Minutes
The minutes of the last meeting were reviewed and agreed.
4
Deputations
Pursuant to Standing Order 19, to receive any deputations to this meeting
Minutes
There were no deputations.
5
Chairman's Announcements
To receive any announcements the Chairman may wish to make.
Minutes
The Chairman informed the Committee that he had been participating in webinars on CIPFA measures. He mentioned the establishment of a Regional Audit Committee encompassing several counties. Although he was unable to attend the inaugural meeting last week, his Hampshire County Council Audit Committee Deputy attended on his behalf and reported that the discussion primarily focused on CIPFA and the audit backlog.
The Chairman also extended a warm welcome to Kevin Suter and Alison Durham from Ernst & Young.
The Chairman also extended a warm welcome to Kevin Suter and Alison Durham from Ernst & Young.
6
External Audit Completion Report 2022/23
To receive a report presenting the external auditor’s Audit Completion Report for 2022/23, which is attached at Appendix 1. The purpose of the auditor’s report is to provide the committee with a detailed report covering the auditor’s approach and outcomes of the 2022/23 audit.
Attachments:
- Document 2022-23 - Audit and Governance Committee EY audit completion report 02 Dec 2024
- Document Appendix 1 02 Dec 2024
Minutes
The Committee received the External Audit Completion Report for 2022/23 from the Chief Financial Officer (item 6 in the minute book).
Ernst & Young clarified that the 2022/23 report received a disclaimed opinion due to the audit's incompleteness, rather than any issues with the report's content. The Committee was informed that they are required to review the report even if the audit is incomplete, and that it will take three to four years to rebuild the disclaimer position.
The Committee inquired about a potential conflict between the Ernst & Young Audit Report and the HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services (HMI) Report. They were reassured that while the HMI report suggested improvements, it did not indicate any fundamental problems. Ernst & Young conducted a detailed comparison and found no failings or significant issues.
The Committee discussed the audit fees charged by Ernst & Young. The Chairman noted that this topic was addressed at a recent webinar he attended. The Chief Financial Officer clarified that the fees are determined by Public Sector Audit Appointments Limited (PSAA).
The Committee expressed concern about the three to four-year timeline to resolve the disclaimer position. They learned that without a completed audit, there are no assurances to base the following year's audit on, which extends the time required to rebuild the position. The auditors commented that the authority's situation is not unique and that many other organisations are facing similar challenges, as this is a national issue.
RESOLVED
The Audit Completion Report for 2022/23 was noted by the HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee.
</AI6>
<AI7>
Ernst & Young clarified that the 2022/23 report received a disclaimed opinion due to the audit's incompleteness, rather than any issues with the report's content. The Committee was informed that they are required to review the report even if the audit is incomplete, and that it will take three to four years to rebuild the disclaimer position.
The Committee inquired about a potential conflict between the Ernst & Young Audit Report and the HM Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services (HMI) Report. They were reassured that while the HMI report suggested improvements, it did not indicate any fundamental problems. Ernst & Young conducted a detailed comparison and found no failings or significant issues.
The Committee discussed the audit fees charged by Ernst & Young. The Chairman noted that this topic was addressed at a recent webinar he attended. The Chief Financial Officer clarified that the fees are determined by Public Sector Audit Appointments Limited (PSAA).
The Committee expressed concern about the three to four-year timeline to resolve the disclaimer position. They learned that without a completed audit, there are no assurances to base the following year's audit on, which extends the time required to rebuild the position. The auditors commented that the authority's situation is not unique and that many other organisations are facing similar challenges, as this is a national issue.
RESOLVED
The Audit Completion Report for 2022/23 was noted by the HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee.
</AI6>
<AI7>
7
External Audit Results Report 2023/24
To receive a report presenting the external auditor’s Audit Results Report for 2023/24, which is attached at Appendix 1. The purpose of the auditor’s report is to summarise the status of the 2023/24 audit. As the audit remains in progress at the time of writing, the auditor will provide a further verbal update at the meeting and explain the remaining steps prior to issuing the final audit opinion.
Attachments:
- Document 2023-24 - Audit and Governance Committee EY audit results report 02 Dec 2024
- Document Appendix 1 02 Dec 2024
Minutes
The Committee received the External Audit Results Report for 2023/24 from the Chief Financial Officer (item 7 in the minute book).
The Committee was informed that the upcoming year is likely to receive a disclaimed opinion due to the incomplete audit and the lack of assurances from the previous year. This makes it difficult to identify specific issues. This disclaimer differs from the 2022/23 disclaimer as it is part of a recovery process. Without assurances regarding the opening balances for 2022/23, avoiding a disclaimer is challenging.
The report provided substantial assurance over investments, cash, creditors, and borrowing. However, only partial assurance was given for Property and Plant Equipment due to the lack of previous year's values. No assurance could be provided for the Reserves as there is no data from the previous year, and assurance will be incrementally built up over the coming years. The next few years will reflect the development of these assurances until all areas are marked as green in the report, and full assurances are reissued. The valuation of land and buildings is still outstanding, but efforts are ongoing to obtain this information.
It was noted that Ernst & Young have yet to receive a report from their Pension Team, so any material errors in the numbers are still unknown. If the errors are material, the Chief Financial Officer will present them at the next Committee meeting or the Full Authority depending on timings; if immaterial, the report will be signed off.
Appendix C lists the outstanding matters, all of which are expected to be resolved by the end of December 2024.
RESOLVED
The Audit Results Report for 2023/24 was noted by the HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee with the delegation to approve minor changes to the accounts by the Chief Financial Officer having been approved by the Standards and Governance Committee in September 2024.
</AI7>
<AI8>
The Committee was informed that the upcoming year is likely to receive a disclaimed opinion due to the incomplete audit and the lack of assurances from the previous year. This makes it difficult to identify specific issues. This disclaimer differs from the 2022/23 disclaimer as it is part of a recovery process. Without assurances regarding the opening balances for 2022/23, avoiding a disclaimer is challenging.
The report provided substantial assurance over investments, cash, creditors, and borrowing. However, only partial assurance was given for Property and Plant Equipment due to the lack of previous year's values. No assurance could be provided for the Reserves as there is no data from the previous year, and assurance will be incrementally built up over the coming years. The next few years will reflect the development of these assurances until all areas are marked as green in the report, and full assurances are reissued. The valuation of land and buildings is still outstanding, but efforts are ongoing to obtain this information.
It was noted that Ernst & Young have yet to receive a report from their Pension Team, so any material errors in the numbers are still unknown. If the errors are material, the Chief Financial Officer will present them at the next Committee meeting or the Full Authority depending on timings; if immaterial, the report will be signed off.
Appendix C lists the outstanding matters, all of which are expected to be resolved by the end of December 2024.
RESOLVED
The Audit Results Report for 2023/24 was noted by the HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee with the delegation to approve minor changes to the accounts by the Chief Financial Officer having been approved by the Standards and Governance Committee in September 2024.
</AI7>
<AI8>
8
Implementation of Global Internal Audit Standards
To receive a report providing an overview of the new Global Internal Audit Standards, to which public sector internal audit functions will have to comply from 1 April 2025.
Attachments:
- Document HIWFRA GIAS Cover Report 02 Dec 2024
- Document Appendix 1 - GIAS 02 Dec 2024
- Document Appendix 2 - GIAS SIAP Roadmap 02 Dec 2024
Minutes
The Committee received the Implementation of the Global Internal Audit Standards Report from the Internal Auditor (item 8 in the minute book).
The Southern Internal Audit Partnership conducted a GAP analysis and is currently executing an action plan. The Committee was informed that the impact on the service would be minimal, with consultations occurring in the background.
The Internal Auditor advised that the Charter and Strategy Plan will be presented at the next meeting.
RESOLVED
The Audit and Governance Committee noted the pending implementation of the Global Internal Audit Standards.
</AI8>
<AI9>
The Southern Internal Audit Partnership conducted a GAP analysis and is currently executing an action plan. The Committee was informed that the impact on the service would be minimal, with consultations occurring in the background.
The Internal Auditor advised that the Charter and Strategy Plan will be presented at the next meeting.
RESOLVED
The Audit and Governance Committee noted the pending implementation of the Global Internal Audit Standards.
</AI8>
<AI9>
9
Internal Audit Progress Report 2024/25
To receive a report providing an overview of internal audit work completed in accordance with the approved audit plans, and an overview of the status of ‘live’ reports.
Attachments:
- Document Internal Audit Progress Cover Report 02 Dec 2024
- Document Internal Audit Progress Report - Appendix A 02 Dec 2024
Minutes
The Committee received the Internal Audit Progress Report 2024/25 from the Internal Auditor (item 9 in the minute book).
The Internal Auditor advised that the 2024/25 internal audit plan is under way. Progress is going well but not as far along as they would have liked.
The Committee inquired about the exclusion of DBS checks from this year's audit. The Internal Auditor explained that due to significant ongoing work related to DBS checks, their inclusion has been deferred to the 2025/26 audit period to allow for a greater focus on other audits this year.
The Committee was informed that the audit plan for 2025/26 is currently under discussion. The Committee requested that Complaints, Whistleblowing, and the review of new processes are included in future audit agendas.
RESOLVED
The progress in delivering the internal audit plan for 2024/25 and the outcomes to date were noted by the HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee.
</AI9>
<AI10>
The Internal Auditor advised that the 2024/25 internal audit plan is under way. Progress is going well but not as far along as they would have liked.
The Committee inquired about the exclusion of DBS checks from this year's audit. The Internal Auditor explained that due to significant ongoing work related to DBS checks, their inclusion has been deferred to the 2025/26 audit period to allow for a greater focus on other audits this year.
The Committee was informed that the audit plan for 2025/26 is currently under discussion. The Committee requested that Complaints, Whistleblowing, and the review of new processes are included in future audit agendas.
RESOLVED
The progress in delivering the internal audit plan for 2024/25 and the outcomes to date were noted by the HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee.
</AI9>
<AI10>
10
Audit Management Actions Progress Report
To receive a report providing the Audit and Governance Committee Members with the latest update on the medium and high internal audit management actions that have not been completed within the agreed target date and are now overdue.
Attachments:
- Document Audit Management Actions Progress Report 02 Dec 2024
Minutes
The Committee received the Audit Management Actions Progress Report from the Chief Fire Officer (item 10 in the minute book).
The Committee was informed that there are no overdue audit actions. Currently, sixteen actions are being tracked, with an update scheduled for the next meeting. It was noted that more realistic deadlines are now being set to prevent actions from becoming overdue, ensuring that the individuals responsible for setting targets can meet those deadlines. Additionally, the Committee was advised that overly extended targets would be flagged by internal audit.
The Committee commended the team for maintaining no overdue actions.
RESOLVED
The progress made towards the implementation of the internal audit management actions and the delivery of the audit plan were noted by the
HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee.
</AI10>
<AI11>
The Committee was informed that there are no overdue audit actions. Currently, sixteen actions are being tracked, with an update scheduled for the next meeting. It was noted that more realistic deadlines are now being set to prevent actions from becoming overdue, ensuring that the individuals responsible for setting targets can meet those deadlines. Additionally, the Committee was advised that overly extended targets would be flagged by internal audit.
The Committee commended the team for maintaining no overdue actions.
RESOLVED
The progress made towards the implementation of the internal audit management actions and the delivery of the audit plan were noted by the
HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee.
</AI10>
<AI11>
11
Assurance Report - HMICFRS Areas for Improvement Progress Update
To receive a report providing Members with an assurance update on the Service’s progress against the open His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services (HMICFRS) Areas for Improvement (AFIs).
Attachments:
- Document HMICFRS areas for improvement progress update 02 Dec 2024
Minutes
The Committee received the Assurance Report – HMICFRS Areas for Improvement Progress Update from the Chief Fire Officer (item 11 in the minute book).
The report was presented at the Committee's request from the previous meeting. The Committee was informed that the two outstanding actions will be completed before the inspection by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services at the end of January 2025.
Public Safety is currently a major focus, with significant ongoing activities. An update on this will be provided at the next meeting.
The Committee was advised that efforts are being made to close the gap and reassess resource allocation.
The Committee praised the team for providing a particularly useful update.
RESOLVED
The HMICFRS AFIs update was noted by the HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee.
</AI11>
<AI12>
The report was presented at the Committee's request from the previous meeting. The Committee was informed that the two outstanding actions will be completed before the inspection by His Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services at the end of January 2025.
Public Safety is currently a major focus, with significant ongoing activities. An update on this will be provided at the next meeting.
The Committee was advised that efforts are being made to close the gap and reassess resource allocation.
The Committee praised the team for providing a particularly useful update.
RESOLVED
The HMICFRS AFIs update was noted by the HIWFRA Audit and Governance Committee.
</AI11>
<AI12>
12
Independent Person to Hampshire and Isle of Wight Fire and Rescue Authority
To receive a report outlining details of the recruitment of Independent Person(s) to the Hampshire and Isle of Wight Fire and Rescue Authority.
Attachments:
- Document Recruitment of Independent Persons to the HIWFRA 02 Dec 2024
Minutes
The Committee received a report on the Independent Person to Hampshire and Isle of Wight Fire and Rescue Authority from the Monitoring Officer (item 12 in the minute book).
The Committee was briefed on the role of the Independent Person and learned that two individuals are required Provide resilience or independence where required at various stages of a complaint.
RESOLVED
· The Audit and Governance Committee agreed that the process for recruitment of two Independent Persons is commenced, and delegates Authority to the Monitoring Officer to advertise the positions for appointment from June 2025 with an annual allowance of £110.
· The Audit and Governance Committee agreed that three cross party Members are appointed to form a working group of the Audit and Governance Committee to undertake shortlisting and interviews.
· The Audit and Governance Committee agreed that the working group brings a recommendation for appointment to the Audit and Governance Committee meeting in March 2025 for approval and recommendation to Full Authority at its meeting in June 2025.
</AI12>
<AI13>
The Committee was briefed on the role of the Independent Person and learned that two individuals are required Provide resilience or independence where required at various stages of a complaint.
RESOLVED
· The Audit and Governance Committee agreed that the process for recruitment of two Independent Persons is commenced, and delegates Authority to the Monitoring Officer to advertise the positions for appointment from June 2025 with an annual allowance of £110.
· The Audit and Governance Committee agreed that three cross party Members are appointed to form a working group of the Audit and Governance Committee to undertake shortlisting and interviews.
· The Audit and Governance Committee agreed that the working group brings a recommendation for appointment to the Audit and Governance Committee meeting in March 2025 for approval and recommendation to Full Authority at its meeting in June 2025.
</AI12>
<AI13>
13
Appointment of Independent Co-Opted Members to the Committee
To receive a report providing Members with information relating the CIPFA Position Statement on Audit Committees recommendation for co-opted members onto Audit committees.
Attachments:
- Document Co-opted Members on Audit Committees 02 Dec 2024
Minutes
The Committee received a report on the Appointment of Independent Co-Opted Members to the Committee from the Chief Fire Officer (item 13 in the minute book).
RESOLVED
The Audit and Governance Committee recommends to the full Authority that the proposal to add co-opted Member(s) to the Audit and Governance Committee be explored further in the new municipal year.
RESOLVED
The Audit and Governance Committee recommends to the full Authority that the proposal to add co-opted Member(s) to the Audit and Governance Committee be explored further in the new municipal year.
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